1/23/2013

Jonathan Tan - The AIM saga taking the spotlight again


The internet is buzzing again with more disclosures of the AIM saga. Someone has disclosed an ex staff of NCS, Jonathan Tan, posting his achievements that included his work with the Town Councils amounting to $30m and a software licence fee of $5m. (S$30 million deal with Singapore Town Council. Software license at S$5 million. This is found in his Linkedin page). How are these numbers related to the cost of developing the Town Council Management System is going to be interesting. The $30m could include hardware and software development and the $5m could be a one time license fee, or would the Town Council be required to pay more license fee for continuous used are not clear.

Some netizens are already screaming their heads off by assuming that the management system costs $30m and being sold for $140,000. On face value it looks quite ugly. But given proper and creative accounting, everything will be in order. There will be fair wear and tear and a large portion could go to hardware and equipment.

There is this thing called depreciation or writing down of goodwill. So if all these have been written off as goodwill or depreciation, there is no value left to the software. And those who think that a $30m system selling at $140,000 will incur a big loss will be mistaken. When the residual value is 0, the $140,000 will become pure profit. Yes, selling the software for any amount is profit.

You may choose to disagree with my ingenious reasoning and explanation.

41 comments:

Anonymous said...

Whatever the outcome, people are fed up. Damage already done. The rest are wast time explanation.

theonion said...

RB

Simple question on the software costs in your article

Are you willing to use the old Microsoft 1997 software operating systems and the old big bulky Personal computers which they were designed for.

Or are you willing to use back the old big tube or Projection TVs.

The biggest problem for technology especially software is that they get obsolete fast unless constantly changed to be upgraded.

So yes, unfortunately, they need to be depreciated as there is wear and tear even for the hardwares or the operating systems are too old and viruses can easily creep in.

rgds

Chua Chin Leng aka redbean said...

Hi theonion,

A town council management system is not about the latest mobile phones with all the colourful lights and games.

Such system can go on for ages with small modifications as they are not supposed to direct a rocket to the moon or to be the top computer game. And if the hardware needed is just any PC that is window based, new or old PC is not issue.

Even after depreciation, the system should function adequately.

Anonymous said...

Aimgate is a blessing in disguise.

Anonymous said...

Would this be reported in the main media? Would the amount be reported as affordable?

Anonymous said...

Onion please don't talk thru your arsehole! Do you have any idea what you are saying? Or for that matter even understand how you may yet be opening another can of worms - if what you say holds true Onion. Then what you are insinuating is that AIM paid good money for a system that should have rightly been priced as $0.00. In which case why did the Town Councils have to pay so much to use an obsolete system?

Is that what you are telling me Onion. If that is what you are saying, then I really have to set aside some time this evening to blog abt it.

You come back to me on this one onion.

Darkness 2013

Anonymous said...

This fellow talk as if they are buying steam engines when everyone is moving to the internal combustion engine. But we all know this is a software anywhere near guiding a rocket to the moon - it's a simple Simon software that just tracks accounting and should be easily upgradable as time goes by. Should to all intends and purposes even be able to hold it's own today without drastic architectural changes.

Red bean you should really filter your comments for stupid post like Onion.

I am serious. Or you too will end up stupid like him.

Darkness 2013

Chua Chin Leng aka redbean said...

Thanks Darkness, for the concise explanation.

I am very diplomatic and polite to all my friends here, even Matilah.

I try my best to be a good host. And I also trust that all the bloggers here are discriminating and can easily see the logic of things posted here.

Cheers.

Anonymous said...

Nowadays, hardware and software forms one integrated system.
When you change the software, you are likely to need to change the hardware.
Change the hardware, and the software becomes obsolete.

This is in contrast to the Clones-In-White.
Get rid of one lousy clone-in-white.
Another clone will crawl out of the woodwork to replace him.

Completely faceless and interchangeable.
Only the heartless ideology remains unchanged.

Anonymous said...

@ January 23, 2013 12:12 pm

Town Council software is so simple, it's ridiculous.
The software just tracks who has paid and who hasn't.
Any Effing computer can support the software.

Anonymous said...

$30 m and $5 m bandied about in the blogosphere is considered accurate to be re-posted? Anyone who puts in their resume will blow up their achievements can hardly be taken as fact. Anyway, I m not keyed in on this AIM saga, just feel its a mountain blow out as a mole hill by who else nothing to do but to score political points.

It depends on what you are looking for; if you are looking for dirt, it is everywhere, even the chair you are sitting on, then you can start blaming the cleaner lady or your maid for not doing a good job, and the cleaner eventually leaves and you will be forced to clean everything yourself because you cant find anyone willing to do such low down job, and eventually pay someone 20% higher to do the same job, and blame others again.

Anonymous said...

/// ... you can start blaming the cleaner lady or your maid for not doing a good job, and the cleaner eventually leaves and you will be forced to clean everything yourself ... ///

Yes.
Now you get it.
Please go.
We don't want you Pro Alien Traitors anymore.
We want to clean up Singapore ourselves.

And take your $2 companies with you.

Chua Chin Leng aka redbean said...

Agree that everything at the moment is just speculation and hearsay. The truth or whatever truth will be out after the investigation is done, hopefully everything will be discovered and uncovered. Then we can re examine the truth of the matter or the truth of the truth.

Anonymous said...

Redbean,
since when you see oracle customized solution cost $140,000 deployed on a large scale ?


here is one commentator from yawning bread site

====================
http://yawningbread.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/pap-mis-aimed-faces-blowback-part-4/#comment-23287

From Diary of a Singaporean Mind 3 January 2013 at 20:45

Someone with insight knowledge of the financial system wrote this:

I was an ex-oracle ERP consultant until a few years ago and I think I must share my 2 cents’ worth of thoughts to put the whole thing in perspective.

1) Just a short intro, Oracle Financials consists of a main module (general ledger GL) and a few subledger modules such as receivables AR, payables AP, assets FA, cash management CM, projects PA. Oracle is the vendor and NCS was the licensed implementation partner for the town councils. Oracle Financials is a enterprise resource planning software (ERP) system and as such it is very huge and complex system, and usually used by large MNCs or GLCs as the licensing fee is not cheap, esp for multiple sites. The system would never have been written from scratch by NCS, rather it is a packaged software written by Oracle, and NCS merely provided consulting and implementation services, which might have included a certain degree of customisation of screens and/or reports.

2) Having said that, I am surprised that the TCs asked NCS to implement Oracle 11 in the year 2003. Oracle 11 was a client-server system and I was already implementing Oracle 11i (web-based system which supercedes Oracle 11) in the year 2001. Needless to say, this client-server system which was in place from 2003 to 2010 is a very obsolete system by today’s standards and knowing how Oracle is like, Oracle would have discontinued support for this dinosaur years ago.

3) Why didnt the TCs ask for a more up-to-date version of the system in the year 2003 when it was first implemented? What intellectual property rights is AIM talking about, given that this is a packaged software written and marketed by Oracle, unless they are referring to customizations done by NCS, but not supported by Oracle.

4) The cost of this Oracle ERP system would be in the range of hundreds of thousands, if not, million dollars. Oracle licenses its software by number of users or sites. So did AIM get a cheap deal by paying 140k after 7 years? Not necessarily, bcos it is already an obsolete system in urgent need of upgrade or re-implementation. In fact, it is a system which should be written off, zero value! But of cos, the data within, is very valuable. But does AIM have the expertise to run this dinosaur system? Definitely not! It would require a team of support consultants who are still well-versed in Oracle Fin 11 to maintain it, and the town councils would probably be the only “company” in whole of SG who is still running Oracle Fin 11.

So what exactly is the 140k for? You know, I know, everybody knows, except PAP.


===============

Chua Chin Leng aka redbean said...

Interesting commentary, anon 1:09. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Redbean,
maybe you should request to audit all softwares used by government organization. I would not be surprised that most expensive customized software system is still in use and not upgraded as long as it continues to serve its purpose, however it may also open more can of worms that these may be handled by similar $2 proxy companies run by you-know-who party as well. If you probe further, out of sudden and nowhere, these softwares suddenly been planned for obsoletion, and you think if you never check, they could never plan for obsoletion. This mysterious issue and coincidence could be one of Seven Wonders of SinCity.

What do you think ?

Anonymous said...

Onion, can see you are trying hard to defend that shameless master of yours.

I am not looking forward to whatever review findings which Pinky called for as I believe nothing will come out from it (is like asking a subordinate to check/investigate his/her superior). I hope our very efficient social media detectives can dig out more and other bloggers including opposition parties can also help to write more/probe further as this also affects those wards they last contested in. Do not let the shameless get away with it.

Anonymous said...

I didn't know onions grow so well in damp, dark, smelly places.
I didn't know onions grow in arseholes.
No wonder PAPigs are so anal retentive.
They have onions stuffed up their arses.

No wonder colo-rectal surgeons can become so important overnight.

Anonymous said...

"Yes.
Now you get it.
Please go.
We don't want you Pro Alien Traitors anymore.
We want to clean up Singapore ourselves.

And take your $2 companies with you."

Anon 103 pm
That's why you are so frustrated. The one who should go is you. $2 company is legal as anything, open your eyes, there are lots of $2 company around, even publicly listed companies have $2 paid up capital. The transaction at AIM was done at arms length, at a public tender, nobody wanted the depleted obsolete system. You should have tendered and you would be rich now.

Go away somewhere greener, you will be happier there.

Anonymous said...

"That's why you are so frustrated. The one who should go is you. $2 company is legal as anything, open your eyes, there are lots of $2 company around, even publicly listed companies have $2 paid up capital. The transaction at AIM was done at arms length, at a public tender, nobody wanted the depleted obsolete system. You should have tendered and you would be rich now."


Wow that is amazing reason worthy of your asshole ....

Why not ask your PAP candidate to explain that in election rally if it is OK and might even help to score point ? It is a noble thing to do, right ? The last thing I remember ShittyTimes and ShittyMedia didn't even carry your reason publicly since it is so moral to do with public money ? So you telling us that it is OK ?


Try harder next time, PAP troll ! Don't mess us with your nonsense, we are not daft. We eat a lot of RedBean, not PapBean. You should stop eating PapBean as it is bad for your brain.

Anonymous said...

/// The transaction at AIM was done at arms length, at a public tender, nobody wanted the depleted obsolete system. You should have tendered and you would be rich now. ///

That's what Khaw and MND is trying to establish.
Was the transaction done at arms length?
Or are you telling us that it's "an arms length transaction" even before MND has finished its investigation?

Or is it that as a PAP troll, you are privy to the final written report even before the investigation has begun?

Rich?
You PAPigs are obsessesed about getting rich aren't you?
You are in politics to get rich aren't you?

I think politics is all about "to achieve happiness, prosperity and progress for our nations".
That's why I will never vote PAP.

Anonymous said...

"Where is the money going to come from?"
Typical PAP question.

"Where is our money going to?"
"How carefully are you spending our money?"
"Is this supplier a $2 PAP company?"
Typical Singaporean question.

They ask us.
We should also ask them.

Better still.
Vote in Opposition MPs to ask them these questions in parliament.

Anonymous said...

"Why not ask your PAP candidate to explain that in election rally if it is OK and might even help to score point ? It is a noble thing to do, right ? The last thing I remember ShittyTimes and ShittyMedia didn't even carry your reason publicly since it is so moral to do with public money ? So you telling us that it is OK "

Anon 155pm

Old and dirty chairs, old tables used in public hospitals, tendered for resale, nobody wanted, I bid for it, using my $2 company, I re-conditioned it and resell it, cannot ?? What is the big deal ?

You eat a lot of Redbean now, yes, because it taste sweeter than the bitter and fibrous Papbean, but it was Papbean that gave you Redbean.

Go figure.

Anonymous said...

January 23, 2013 2:48 pm,

Must be damn talented ! Can you mind to share your particular here so that we and redbean can learn from you as how to earn millions legally from such deal that associated with public money ? Very sure Pinky will want to know you too.

I hope it is not your asshole that do the talking and writing , is it ?

Chua Chin Leng aka redbean said...

Let's have a fair share of opposing views without getting personal. The best argument or explanation will be based on its merits and this will be decided by the readers.

Anonymous said...

We will give Onion 24 hours to substantiate what he has to say, after that we will go viral.

If PM wants to sue again. He can go and sack someone from the internet brigade this time.

That will be all gentlemen.

Darkness 2013

There is only one way to handle these people.

Anonymous said...

Thats the problem when a single party controlled the gov - they can do what they want with tax payers money - just like in a dictatorship.

Anonymous said...

I am sure more will be uncovered when opposition MPs have the power to walk thru the accounts in GIC, TH, ST, MAS. To be more fair to people, the gov audit dept should be headed by a opposition mp.

Anonymous said...

I am not from the estab. I speak as a citizen. Am not a millionaire neither am I paid to write.

You are saying that old chairs, old computers, old equipment, old software that govt departments buy, these things that has become obsolete, cannot be sold as "2nd hand" to whoever is interested ? You think it is better to throw it as garbage then you be happy? Isn't that a even more waste of public money ??

Singapore has many $2 companies. Someone has to open these companies. He or she can be a PAP or oppo supporter. It doesn't matter.

Anonymous said...

January 23, 2013 4:56 pm

I don't know whether you are orion or not orion, can you please stop insulting our intelligence ?

You don't even understand the context of all these issues and you trying to preach us your gospel ?

Anonymous said...

/// You are saying that old chairs, old computers, old equipment, old software that govt departments buy, these things that has become obsolete, cannot be sold as "2nd hand" to whoever is interested ? ///

Of course these old things can be sold.
What we want to know is;

1. How do we know they are really old? Maybe they are only 6 months old?

2. How do we know they are really obsolete?

3. How do we know whether a fair & open tender has been called?
Or are these sales being made known to only a few $2 companies who may possibly be "related" parties?

Yes, we may have guardians to ensure everything is leegal.
But who are these guardians?
And who guards the guardians?

Anonymous said...

@ ANON: January 23, 2013 4:56 pm

I know of two old and obsolete pieces of furniture at the Istana.
I still don't know why they have not been replaced yet.

Personally, I don't think it's a waste of money if we just throw them away.
They are old & ugly and takes up a lot of useful space.

theonion said...


Redbean

Based on the facts not the speculation which even so called Oracle expert states:-

System technology is at least 10 years old.

has more than 1 million customers accounts etc as town council serves residence.

Is customised, which means no other companies can use it without customisation for their own business unlike off the shelf products

Obsolete database software and operating software technology.
Highly sensitive and with bad publicity all around if anything goes wrong.

If any viruses etc hits the server, well, theres hell to pay eg some town council webistes which were hacked

Let me put this way, the Deloittes report was just polite, if not, they could easily put up their
hands to run it than.

You are refering to obsolete systems which also issues bills reminders etc.

Even with Microsoft, you also need patch upgrades.

Well, all I can say is best of luck for those who think this is the best software and can also be sold to town councils all over the world.

All major companies who use Oracle software do have to upgrade and this causes millions more and
definitely any past cost is a sunk cost.

regards

Anonymous said...

So a $2 company with no permanent staff is able to better maintain the Town Council software ... how?

Anonymous said...

The first shit is to buy an obsolete software. The second shit is to customise it. The third shit is to pay a hefty sum for it. The fourth shit is to sell it for a song. The fifth shit is to sell it to a political party owned company.

Anyway, this is dedicated stand alone system that serves a simple function. The functions could be the same functions it is serving in another 100 years. It is basically like a ledger, profit and loss, debit credit system. And it would remain that way.

If it is not a public domain system, a closed system, it is unlikely to be hit by viruses unless it operates the window or some open operating system.

Anonymous said...

Tony Tan is the guardian of Singapore's assets.

So who guards Tony Tan?
Who ensures that Tony Tan is doing his job?

Anonymous said...

When billions are lost by TH and GIC, NOBODY is accountable for the loss, and NOBODY is blamed for the lost, and NOBODY get investigated for the loss.

"So who guards Tony Tan?
Who ensures that Tony Tan is doing his job?"

It must be NOBODY again.

Anonymous said...

Wow!
NOBODY seems to be the leeder in this PAP government.
NOBODY seems to be in charge of everything.

Who guards the guardian?
NOBODY.

I feel so much better that NOBODY is managing our hard earned tax dollars.

theonion said...

The question remains

why of you guys writing this wants to use back the old software or PC or old server systems.

My guess, is that most updating their comments here are using smartphones or tablets.

Chua Chin Leng aka redbean said...

Hi theonion, two points. Using newer and better smart phones is a convenience and a fad. Many people only use the mobile as a phone or sms. Some include email. The rest of the functions are good to have but unnecesary.

The second point is that people are paying with their money for fun and entertainment unlike the management system that is a functional tool that is very well provided with all the need functions. You don't need a Brompton if a Taiwan made bike can do the job equally well. A bike is a bike. The rest are frills to thrill.

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